Secret #43: Who Am I? Navigating Identity in Young Men with Nike Oruh
In this episode of Life's Dirty Little Secrets, hosts Emma Waddington and Chris McCurry are joined by Nike Oruh, a therapeutic specialist and clinical lead counselor at Edinburgh Napier University.
The discussion delves into the struggles young men face today, focusing on their search for purpose, the influence of social media, gender role shifts, and the need for safe spaces to express emotions.
The conversation emphasizes the importance of emotional vocabulary, positive role models, and community support systems to help young men navigate the complexities of modern masculinity and emotional well-being.
Highlights:
Understanding Young Men's Behavior
Anger and Emotion
Addressing Societal Issues
Intersectionality and Resilience
Emotional Support Framework
Safe Spaces for Expressions
Role Models and Empowerment
Managing Struggles and Empowerment
TIMESTAMPS
00:00 Introduction and Guest Introduction
03:16 Influence of Environment and Society
06:17 Emotional Well-being and Vulnerability
07:32 Gender Roles and Economic Instability
08:31 Martial Arts and Vulnerability
13:59 Emotional Vocabulary and Expression
27:07 Understanding Duality and Beliefs
28:22 Navigating Family Dynamics and Emotions
32:36 Promoting Healthy Masculinity and Community
33:50 Empowering Through Acceptance and Expression
38:56 The Importance of Role Models and Community Support
40:02 Recognizing and Addressing Societal Challenges
40:33 Empowering Individuals and Collective Action
44:42 The Journey of Personal Growth and Resilience
Resources Mentioned in this Episode:
Jackson Katz: https://search.app/EfiaBa6UdeuMJhKw9
About Nike Oruh:
Subscribe to Nike’s Substack - VII Breaths Substack: VII Breaths Journal
Nike is an experienced therapeutic specialist with a demonstrated history of working in the Health & Wellbeing industry. He has spent the past two decades involved in emotional and sexual health, which began with a non-profit organisation whose main aim was to help young people make informed choices. Nike has developed his communication skills, training and experience as a therapist across various settings and environments. Which led to his contribution to the seminal counselling book First Steps in Counselling (5th Edition) (PCCS Books).
His expertise in the areas of Men’s Health, Race & Equality and emotional wellbeing are in high demand from Higher Education (Edinburgh, Stirling and Strathclyde Universities) to the Third Sector (Penumbra, ARC Scotland).
Nike is the Clinical Lead Counsellor at Edinburgh Napier University with a Postgraduate Diploma (PgDip) focused in clinical, counselling and applied psychology from University of Stirling. A qualified Dietitian (PgDip) via Queen Margaret University and over 20 years in the music industry, as an award-winning performing artist, label owner and promoter.
He would describe himself as an ‘Elevator, Communicator & Motivator’,
Nike’s passion is helping people to understand themselves and reach their true potential.
Follow us on Facebook @lifesdirtylittlesecretspodcast and on Instagram @lifesdirtylittlesecrets
Reach out and let us know you are listening and what you would like to hear on the show - email:lifesdirtylittlesecretspodcast@gmail.com
-
Secret #43: Who Am I? Navigating Identity in Young Men with Nike Oruh
[00:00:00]
Introduction and Guest Introduction
Emma Waddington: Welcome to Life's Dirty Little Secrets. I'm Emma Waddington.
Chris McCurry: And I'm Chris McCurry, and today we are privileged to have as our guest Nike Oruh. Nike is an experienced therapeutic specialist with a history of working in the health and well being industry. He's a, has [00:01:00] expertise in the area of men's health, race and equality and emotional well being.
He's a clinical lead counselor at Edinburgh Napier University. And focusing on clinical counseling and applied psychology and he would describe himself as an elevator communicator and motivator. And he has a passion for helping people to understand themselves and reach their true potential.
Welcome, Nicky.
Nike Oruh: Lovely to be here. Thank you for that introduction. So, you have many passions from, you know, counseling to. Diet and health, physical health in general to music, you're an award winning musician and record promoter. We may touch on that in the course of our time. But let's start by talking about. Men's health in general, and we both, you know, physical and mental with that seems to be a theme in our podcast lately.
Chris McCurry: Perhaps a, an [00:02:00] unrecognized or area. But, in your experience working a, an a counseling center at a university what do you see going on with young men these days and what are they struggling with?
Nike Oruh: It's such a huge area. And as you said, it's something that is very topical at the moment. And I think it's an area that's rapidly evolving. Underneath it, I think there's a search for purpose. And unfortunately it appears to be in sort of like a landscape that offers more questions than answers.
I think searching it's a normal part of growing and it can sometimes sort of unfortunately lead in this case was we're talking about young men into some darker paths or towards sort of extremes or the fringe ideologies that promise this clear solution or a sense of belonging or an outlet for the frustrations.
And I think that's. Kind of ensure what's what I'm observing a lot, particularly in my place of work. I work at Napier in [00:03:00] Edinburgh, Scotland. And there is a sense of trying to search for that purpose. And where do I get that from? How do I get it? So yeah,
Chris McCurry: And where are people getting their sense of purpose?
Nike Oruh: there's, again there's a range of areas.
Influence of Environment and Society
Nike Oruh: I think we live in a technological age and of course the internet, social media is a huge. Influence on many, not just young people, but people in general. But if you even take a step back, our environment also plays a big part of that. We learn a lot in the home, you know, whether that's our family or friends, it's also institutions, structures, you have things like faith, religions, and a lot of these things are kind of.
Perhaps as we discussed earlier, before we record in the fundamental aspects that lead us into certain directions. And if we don't have strong structures and we don't have leaders or guidance along that journey or that [00:04:00] route, we talked, touched upon the hero journey, then we can go down different directions or directions that send us off the course.
Emma Waddington: it's so good to be having this conversation. We have been having more conversations about men. On the podcast, we had a wonderful conversation with Russell Colts on detoxifying masculinity and and I keep saying the same thing. Anybody who listens to this podcast will be getting bored of the fact that it's the first time in my career that I'm seeing more men than women. And it's a privilege I think, for me, having, getting to, to really hear some of the struggles that young men, and even older men are facing today, really with their ideas about what it is to be a man. There are so many contradictions and there's this sort of impossible masculinity that creates all this tension on the one hand, you know, men expected to be stoics and strong but [00:05:00] then we have, you know, everything that's come with the Me Too movement that has sort of put men in a very in a position where they're predators and seen as You know, violent and aggressive and often feel very blamed and ashamed.
I'm not saying that, you know. There isn't reason for that, too. Obviously we, we do have many victims of violence, but it is a very difficult position that some men find themselves in,
Nike Oruh: definitely.
Emma Waddington: and it is a tension that there are lots of good men, obviously, like yourselves and especially young men that really need support and guidance because they are faced with this situation.
Impossible masculinity and not a lot of direction and you're right. They do end up finding direction in places that give them. Sort of concrete answers about what's right and wrong and may not be the best [00:06:00] influences and it is troubling You know the statistics speak for themselves. It's so many I think young men die, you know by suicide more than in any other way So we do have a mental crisis in young men and we need to understand it better
Emotional Well-being and Vulnerability
Nike Oruh: Yeah, I checked Russell's podcast with yourself, and one of the things that stuck out for me, which I really valued was his view on hope, and he said something along the lines of creating um, like a context and an environment for the sort of feelings and sort of for us to become feeling beings.
I think it's what he said, something along those lines. And I think That's really important in terms of men because very often we haven't necessarily been given the emotional vocabulary. So, you know, that's one of the things which I see a lot when I work with people in the space. It's one of the first opportunities they've had to actually [00:07:00] vocalize and verbalize those emotions and those feelings in a safe space.
And a lot of what you were describing there really tapped into that idea of A search for identity and you're speaking Chris about what's difficult. I think there's three key areas that I've been thinking about, which is the shifting in sort of gender roles. That's something that's huge. The economic instability that certainly a lot of people are experiencing.
And then there's the social expectations, which is kind of what you're alluding to there, Emma.
Gender Roles and Economic Instability
Nike Oruh: And I think a lot of the, if we were to start first with the sort of the gender roles as a traditional sort of notions of what masculinity is supposed to be, you know, and I think that can leave a lot of people, men, very unsure about what it even means to be a man.
You know, there's, it's kind of, what does that even mean in 2024? And then when you look at the sort of economic instability, rising costs of [00:08:00] living, stagnant wages, there's fewer clear pathways to sort of create a future that just adds to the uncertainty that seems to be around for a lot of people.
And then we've got this growing emphasis on sort of emotional intelligence and vulnerability which a lot of men who I work with struggle with that, you know, how do you integrate that with your sort of self concept due to the cultural conditionings that we've been given?
Martial Arts and Vulnerability
Nike Oruh: And for me I'm a passionate martial artist as well.
And that's one of the key things for a lot of people who don't know much about martial arts. It stems a lot from vulnerability. And then we look up sort of martial arts and combat in general, a lot of people are looking to feel less vulnerable, you know, and you forget that a lot of the time that actually that's what is a big driver so that I'm not, I won't be a victim so that I won't feel vulnerable.
So yeah, that's something which [00:09:00] taps into a lot of my work is. Kind of how we do we have safe spaces to experience that vulnerability and the full plethora of emotions that we all experience
Emma Waddington: It's so yeah, it's thank you absolutely and I think You I've come to realize I'm a mom of two boys and my boys have taught me so much about what it's like to be a boy today. And I realized that for me growing up I was brought up by two feminists. I'm one of three sisters. And as far as I was concerned for a long time, girls had it harder. the boys had it easy and then I had sons. And so for me the sort of man, you know, male boy issue was really quite invisible. I didn't think, I didn't think much of it until I had boys and they started to challenge me. And to challenge my perception of how [00:10:00] easy it was, and they spoke to me from a very young age about the tension and I realized that I was probably very naive as to what they were up against.
So we talk a lot about feelings in this household, being the child of a psychologist. And. One day, my son, and I've said this in the podcast before he came home and he's given me consent. And he was nine and he said to me, he asked me, what do you think happens if a boy cries in maths? And I said, well, what happens? I mean, people gather and he said, no, what do you think happens when a girl cries? And I suddenly realized that there is a difference that when boys are emotional. They don't get the support. So there was a naivety for me that simply teaching boys and men emotional language isn't enough. We also need to give them [00:11:00] context, communities, places where they can express it and have it met with the support that they need. So simply. You know, going out there and doing lots. And I think this should be happening in schools from a very young age, giving this language. But they, we also need to recognize that the community isn't entirely ready for emotional men or boys or young.
And. And we have to just be honest as we still have work to do and I speak to, as I said, many male clients and they'll say to me that they only share with me and they'll be married and they'll have sisters and, you know, they'll have communities around them, but they don't feel safe. And these are, you know, very intelligent very successful men, but. Yeah they're not comfortable. So
Nike Oruh: and I totally agree that I think One of the things which I used to work in the third sector and we did a lot of work in high schools I worked in high schools and I think it was [00:12:00] about 2011 you might've heard of the gentleman Jackson Katz And he does a lot of work around domestic violence and violence towards women and his program is called MVP Mentals and Violence Prevention.
And one of the things that really struck with me is that often people think it's someone else's issue. You know, there's this kind of thought that, and you kind of alluded to that with your sons, until you're Open to seeing it, it's not really, it's not really an issue, you know?
And I think it's everybody's issue to. To work on the change that we want to see. And there's an opportunity there. And part of that is creating spaces to have open conversations, to explore different ideas different processes, thoughts structures. And I think a big part of that, as we touched on before is the vulnerability, you know because there are a lot of very vulnerable men out there.
And [00:13:00] unfortunately. Often is expressed through anger, which is an acceptable motion for men to express or all the types of emotions like that. And if we can provide other outlets and other opportunities to express what someone's feeling, I think that's really what needs to be done.
Emma Waddington: it is so true that the anger is the dominant and the sort of more acceptable. And I remember I think I might've mentioned it with Russell. I feel like I might be repeating myself. I'll try and get some original content soon, that we tend to label boys affect as anger. We mislabel it often as anger.
And so. They express a lot more anger. It's like anger is the acceptable emotion, but then they get older and we go too much anger.
I don't want too much anger. And that is very difficult because there isn't this sort of emotional vocabulary or permission to express different dimensions. I
Emotional Vocabulary and Expression
Nike Oruh: [00:14:00] sphere and one of the tools that I'm a person center counselor But when I worked in the high schools, we used quite an integrative flow process and a bit quite a bit of CBT And one of the things we used to use as a as a tool was the anger volcano or the the iceberg.
And so obviously you see the tip of the iceberg in the water, which is often maybe the anger and get then looking beneath the surface to see that, okay, beneath there is some sadness, is some frustration, is some anxiety, some vulnerability. And by addressing or meeting some of those emotions, then. Often the whole of the iceberg can perhaps melt as opposed to just addressing what we see and thinking that's all that's going on.
And that's, that was always a really powerful tool that I used. And so particularly, I would say actually young men go actually, yeah, you know what? I do feel afraid, or I am feeling worried about this. And the way that I express it is this, I kick off or I do that. You [00:15:00] know, that's accepted. So, yeah, there's definitely work work to be done there.
Chris McCurry: Well, I've worked over the many years as a child psychologist with a lot of, with a lot of young men and boys. And I've gotten a lot out of teaching them emotional vocabulary. Like there's the difference between, as you said, anger and frustration or I'll never forget teaching it was actually a girl the word indignant. She was getting eased at school and she was saying, I was so angry. And I said, you know, we have this great word, it's called indignant. She said, yeah, indignant. And her whole posture changed. Instead of being hunched over and, you know, I'm angry she threw her shoulders back and her head up and said, I'm indignant.
And it's a shifted thing.
Nike Oruh: Yeah. It's giving people the tools. I think that's what you're describing there. When we can give people the tools and, you know, that, that [00:16:00] old proverb of, you know, teach someone how to, you can give someone a fish or you can teach them how to catch the fish, you know, and often I did groups with young men, maybe around, you know, You know, back in the days, like anger management, and actually sometimes it's about giving someone the tools of how to be calm, you know, and I've got kids as well.
I've got four kids and one of the things, you know, if you to ask my children, you know, In schools, I don't know if it's the same in Singapore and America, it's like people are told to calm down, just calm down. But what does that even mean? When you say to somebody, calm down, what am I supposed to do? If you were to ask my children, they'd say, okay, number one is breathing, right?
So what does that do? It's going to allow you to regulate your heart rate because when you're anxious or stressed, your heart goes up, so you're slowing it down. The other thing that's happened is you're getting oxygen. Right. You need oxygen to oxygenate your blood. So that's going to then help to go to the organs.
So there's actually a tangible way to do the thing that you're looking for. It's not [00:17:00] just this word. That's. That's palmed about and giving people the tools and the understanding allows them to do for self and have a better understanding of self.
Chris McCurry: I mean, one of the things that I would coach parents on is to do that kind of validation or feedback and to use more nuanced language like, wow, you're really frustrated right now or whatever it may be. And I would encourage parents to not be too calm about it because people hate. Being told just take some deep breaths, you know, and it's like you just want to punch the person, you know Cuz clearly they don't get it So I would talk about what I call whole body validation where the parent would reflect back You know, I mean not throw furniture too, but to be able to go really Frustrated right now.
Nike Oruh: Yeah.
Chris McCurry: And the those non verbals are very powerful in terms of saying I get it [00:18:00] and Because if people don't feel heard, if they don't feel felt, they're going to persist in that behavior until they do. A friend of mine who was actually one of our guests recently, Steve Graybar, used to say, all behavior is a message, and a behavior won't begin to change until the person knows the message has been received.
And those non verbals are important to be able to convey, you know, I get it, you know, this is, you know, this is frustrating. This is this is really sad. Wow. and I, so I, I think going back to what you were saying before, it starts with, you know, what can parents do to raise good boys and, and girls too, because girls need to be able to understand their own internal states and express them.
In ways that are going to be effective.
Nike Oruh: Yeah. What you touched up on there, Chris, as well, was that acknowledgement and acceptance of how somebody is feeling. So, and you also alluding to that as well. If I can't even see [00:19:00] that you're struggling, I can't even acknowledge that what I'm seeing doesn't look like a struggle. It's like, Oh, what are you complaining about?
But when we can have that empathy or that understanding of, okay, no, I do see that it's hard for you right now. You're feeling disconnected. You don't feel you have a place. Yes. Okay. What would a place look like for you? How can we include you more? How can we perhaps change the system to have you feel more part of it?
How can we develop trust? And within my, my work at Napier, we found that a lot of men were not engaging in therapy and that's me and myself and my colleague, Amy, who was on the show as well. We did some focus groups for Ben in particular. to find out what is it that we're perhaps not doing, you know, ask the people who you are actually trying to engage with, what is it that we're missing here?
Is it our approach? Is it the language we use? And perhaps we're using a language that doesn't resonate with you, or you don't feel that's part of your belonging. [00:20:00] And I think that's another big area that why young men in particular feel vulnerable is that need for belonging. And if you look at the sort of.
Extreme groups. There's a sense of, well, at least I belong here. Even if it's this complete abhorrent thing in my eyes or someone else's eyes, I belong, I feel part of something feel included. And as humans, we are social creatures, you know, and in the UK, whether it's sport or you look at things like gangs and things like that.
A big part of that is a sense of, I am part of something. And the other part of that, which we were speaking about Chris before was the initiation. You know, part of societies and cultures, there's an initiation to become something, you know, and I suppose for young men, you initiate to become a man. How does a young man become that?
What are the steps and the stages and there's a lack of that, a lack of opportunity to go through those [00:21:00] Phases to become
Chris McCurry: Oh, yeah. I mean, historically, in other cultures, it was quite clear, you know, at a certain age, you got taken out into the forest and,
Nike Oruh: right.
Chris McCurry: you know, circumcised with a dove rock. And, you know, you found out that those spooky characters were actually your uncles and masks, you know, all these years. And you were initiated and then you came back to the village and now you sleep in the men's hut.
And it was like, one and done. But now it's kind of vague. And so people are looking for that validation, that initiation in some places that are not very healthy.
Nike Oruh: That's correct. I'm positive role models as well. We were to touch it upon that Well, where are the positive role models and often they're quite Binary or one dimensional it's kind of like It's either this or it's this, you know, as opposed to can multiple things actually co exist, you know [00:22:00] and in therapy with a lot of clients we talk about, you know, I was speaking with a client just the other day that a good person can do bad things or a bad person can have some good qualities and.
This sort of nuanced outlook on perhaps what it can look like to be a man can be various things. It's not just this or this, you know, and that all our people to particularly on men to find a place for themselves to fit in, you know and to kind of feel part of something.
Chris McCurry: Well, when, when we talked to Stephen Batchelor quite some time ago, we talked about this issue of good and evil and how, you know, it comes split into, you know, us versus them. Me and you, I'm this, you're that, and when in fact we both, we all harbor both
Nike Oruh: Yes.
Chris McCurry: are capable of both so we should be a little, a little [00:23:00] more humble about this, but in my experience you know, when people get stressed, they go right to that binary view of the world.
The
Nike Oruh: Totally. Totally.
Chris McCurry: call it splitting. And you know, the, so everything becomes black and white, all or none of us versus them. And then that's, you know, something that people can embrace because it's simple. And you know it gives them a path forward. Not necessarily a you know, healthy path though.
Emma Waddington: was, it's just hitting me. Something that as I listened to you both, I'm thinking, One of the issues we have with with men is because anger is the dominant emotion. They're often, those young men who are angry, faced with rejection and with being told that their anger is too much and nobody wants to listen to angry men.
Angry men are scary and intimidating to women. And [00:24:00] thinking about that metaphor of the iceberg, because the anger is just the tip. We need to give men time to talk about what's beneath the anger, but sometimes there's just no time for that because anger can be such a powerful emotion. It's difficult one to sit with and maybe that's the privilege we have in therapy that usually people do get angry, but they don't tend to be aggressive.
But in other contexts, they could be.
Nike Oruh: Yes.
Emma Waddington: We almost, this re imagining masculinity includes being okay with the anger
Nike Oruh: Totally. Totally.
Emma Waddington: giving that time so that we can see what else is there. And I've realized that as a woman, my, you know, my boys have talked about martial arts and boxing. And my first reaction was, no, you don't need that. Why do you need to be aggressive? Who are you going to use that against? My initial is push away. Thankfully, I [00:25:00] have a very, I have very patient boys and very patient husband who's educate me that's okay. That it's okay to want to be strong, that it doesn't mean that I'm going to want to help people.
And that it's okay to like to get into fights. You know, not to hurt, but, you know, to see how my body can move and how I can, you know, feel strong. And that, for me, is a different version of the world as a
Nike Oruh: yeah,
Emma Waddington: you know, I know there's lots of women that like fighting, but I don't. I see aggression as quite dangerous and quite scary, and I get quite intimidated.
But I think that the journey is about making space for these different, like you said, the different facets and not pushing it away and going, that's not okay. We can't have anger. We can't have wanting to do, you know, any aggressive behavior. That's not okay. It's kind of, and I can see why that would be very frustrating.
It's very frustrating for my children. When I go, we can't speak like [00:26:00] that, you can't talk like that. I don't like you listening to these people, like shutting everything down,
Nike Oruh: Yeah,
Emma Waddington: but to be open and curious and to invite
Nike Oruh: yes,
Emma Waddington: isn't easy either.
Nike Oruh: very hard.
Emma Waddington: It's a big journey, but listening to you both. I'm thinking the journey is really requires an opening up because we can't continue the way we are.
We are losing. Young men too much. You know, young men are not asking for help. Like you said, in, in your organization, that sounds fantastic. That you've had a focus group and said, what are we missing? We need to be asking these questions. Why are we losing men? You know, to feel fringe. Why are those, why are they more inviting than being amongst us?
Nike Oruh: you touched upon it beautifully there, though, with the acceptance that all those varying feelings and emotions are valid. As soon as you [00:27:00] disconnect that and say, well, That's okay. But that's not okay. You know, and it requires empathy.
Understanding Duality and Beliefs
Nike Oruh: It requires awareness. It requires some actionable steps. And I often communicate that, you know, there's the duality that exists in nature, in the world.
I mean, I believe in peace. I'm completely anti violent. Yeah. I train martial arts. I love animals. I love cats and dogs. Yeah. I eat chickens. You know, we've got this duality and we like to. Well, that's different that this bit's okay, because it's sits in with me in my narrative or what's okay with me and being open to the conversation and to be able to question, okay, why do I think like that?
Or why does that person think like that? You know, nobody just came along and had all those thoughts, beliefs. And ideas a lot of it's condition and a lot of it's environment, a lot of it's learned behavior. And that means, as you said, creating an open space to discuss that the only way that [00:28:00] we're going to have any change by just demanding that your beliefs are wrong or you cannot do that.
Well, we see it's not working at all and hasn't worked. So, you know, is it, what is Einstein? You know, the. To keep repeating the same thing and expecting a different result is insanity. You know, so we have to change what we're doing if it's not working.
Emma Waddington: Yeah.
Navigating Family Dynamics and Emotions
Emma Waddington: And I can see how hard it is. Like personally, I noticed that the tension with me and my children, I'm not, I don't see it in my clinic room, in my clinic room, I have lots of space for emotion and it's fine. But when my sons come up and I hear them, you know, sometimes that banter just feels really bad. You know, borderline aggressive or you know, they talk to me about boxing and they watch boxing and I just worry, what does that mean is, you know, are they going to get into fights? Are they going to want to be, but that's pushing them away instead [00:29:00] of being curious and I'm working on it. I can't say it's really easy.
I have good. Guidance from my husband, but having been brought up with girls and, you know, pacifist and all that, I think I just don't want that, but that's an oversimplistic version
Nike Oruh: Yes.
Emma Waddington: and I have to learn how to integrate it in my mind, but give them the room to explore and be curious for themselves and give them the space to, yeah to tell me about it,
Nike Oruh: I think context is quite key as well. One of the main martial arts I train is Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. And it's interesting. We're talking about men's health because it's become very popular within a lot of the podcast world and the media world from your Uberman's to your freedom, Lex Reed men's and your Joe Rogan's.
But one of the things about that particular art is learning to be comfortable with the uncomfortable, the repeated space of vulnerability than gaining strength. [00:30:00] You know, there's various analogies and elements of that, which allow you to experience the gamut of feelings and emotions in a contained environment, you know, so you can safely explore your aggression.
You know, and that's accepted, you know, and then you stop or you tap and you can go again, right. And you also are going to be pushing yourself to be in places that you're not familiar with. Or things that are difficult. And I think that happens in an athletic realm there. But I think similarly, having these conversations within the family, within communities is really important.
I used to run a group in the community, it was called the feel good group, and We made it single gender, all female groups, male groups, and within those spaces, for many of those young people, the first time that they would sit and have lunch together or talk about issues [00:31:00] that they just didn't feel safe to have.
And it was such a beautiful space to sort of, You know, you're having some laundry and some fruit and discussing what it's like. And how does that feel for you in a safe contained space allows people to, to feel free, you know, and to perhaps explore things that they think are not acceptable. Severely lacking in many areas I can't think of many places where particularly men in general have that freedom to do that.
Maybe the barber shop, maybe football, a few places where you can let down that mask, you know.
Emma Waddington: but there's not the, there are these communities and they'll go and watch, you know, yeah. A match, but they don't speak often about the things that they want to speak about. And that's what I hear in, you know, in my clinic room is that they. There aren't that many opportunities for men to speak more vulnerably, or at least they don't feel like there is.
How do we create more, especially for our [00:32:00] young men? Like if I think of this idea of, you know, martial arts and I sometimes think of the gaming community, they need to play and test themselves and be challenged and see, you know, do some aggressive things because, you know, they're not. They're not allowed to go out there and, you know, chase each other with sticks anymore.
They find other ways of expressing those parts of themselves, but yeah, there aren't many opportunities for men to speak openly and vulnerably.
Promoting Healthy Masculinity and Community
Nike Oruh: I think what Chris said earlier about starting quite young is quite important when we're our most malleable. So, you know, promoting healthy masculinity, Early, you know, so updating that version of what it means to be. Man, you know, promoting emotional intelligence, collaboration, self awareness alongside the strength, alongside the resilience.[00:33:00]
It's not either or, you know, it's not like you can't have that and you can't do that. And like fostering those communities as well. So I think that's not just with men, but there's a lack of community.
Emma Waddington: there
is.
Nike Oruh: in a crowd. You know, often people feel disconnected.
And so whether that is, as we've mentioned, through sport, through art, through group activities, that can foster that sense of belonging without the, you know, the cliche toxicity, it's like actually, We're part of here, you know, and I'm accepted and like, I have a voice, you know, that's a big part of what's lacking is there isn't an opportunity to be heard as you are, like, just as you are, not because of what you do or what you have, you're enough as you are, you know,
Empowering Through Acceptance and Expression
Chris McCurry: I think, and I think part of that acceptance piece is a message explicitly or implicitly that I trust that [00:34:00] you can have these emotions and you're going to make good decisions about it. Because in the therapy that Emma and I have been trained in, it's not Anger management so much as it's managing your behavior when you're angry,
Trying to, like, get rid of your feelings is is difficult.
Or maladaptive and a lot of cases, so it's okay here you are being angry, I trust that you're going to be able to make a good decision, even though you're angry. And I think that's very empowering to get that message that you're not going to like. Go crazy or fall apart or, you know, become an axe murderer just because you're feeling X, Y, or Z feeling you know, and let's talk about how you're going to manage this situation and giving kids the tools to be able to do that largely through expressing their feelings in appropriate ways, you know, and adaptive ways through language or whatever it may be.
But I think, you know, it kind of [00:35:00] goes back to that idea about, you know, martial arts and, you know, Gandhi said that you can't be a pacifist unless you know how to fight because being a pacifist is a choice and if you can't fight, there is no choice.
Nike Oruh: exactly right. That's a beautiful, quote.
Chris McCurry: you know, years ago when I got my black belt in karate, one of my colleagues said, so, you know can you kill a person now if they attack you?
And I said, actually, now I don't have to kill them. You know? 'cause anybody can kill somebody, pick up a chair in a bar and hit somebody and they're dead. But if you know how to use your body and you know, through martial arts or whatever you can handle situations or even not get involved at all because you're not gonna be reacting out of fear.
Nike Oruh: Yeah.
that's, a paradox.
Yeah. it is such a paradox. It's like when. I think of people taking martial arts I often think it's in defense and that you're more likely to get yourself into [00:36:00] trouble. the, we had a conversation with a psychologist who works in a trauma center in London and, and she talked about interpersonal violence and how young men are carrying knives to protect themselves.
Emma Waddington: And if you carry a knife, you're more likely to use it, but often they're carrying knives because they're so scared that they're going to be attacked. And I guess it's a paradox that if you actually have the skills, you're less likely to use them
Nike Oruh: Yeah, 100%. I totally agree with that. I think the other thing which I see with training and other endeavors as well is that these are just other vehicles for expression. So, you know, I did music and when I'm performing or when I've done music, it's an opportunity to express myself, you know, when you're doing the sports or you're, you know, You know, doing other activities, it's an opportunity to express your whole self.
And the other thing we've talked a lot about anger, it's [00:37:00] necessary. It's a necessary emotion. So as soon as you say you shouldn't be that, it's like, well, part of me is not necessary or it's not valid. And I think it's about creating a, an environment and a culture where that acceptance of. Of the whole, as opposed to cherry picking.
Well this, and this is acceptable and this is okay. You know, it's as you said, Chris, okay, I can see that. I can see that's what you're experiencing. How are you gonna manage that? Is that serving you, you know, is there an alternative, is there a different way? And that's one of the first lessons you will learn in authentic martial arts is to avoid, that's actually the very first thing, you know, if you can avoid it, that's the best form.
So you don't have to do anything. So I think there is often misconceptions as well, but lead people to have a certain view of what the situation is or how something's being perceived. Yeah, I really do [00:38:00] think we have got to create the space for these conversations like we're doing today. We're having the conversation, you know,
Emma Waddington: yeah, absolutely. And I guess recognizing that. There are a lot of young men who are not getting this opportunity to have these conversations and understanding. I remember listening to a podcast many years ago about a very sad story of a young man who died. And interpersonal violence. He was, He was stabbed in London many years ago.
And he had started a boxing gym and he had so many young men at his gym. And unfortunately he was, I think he was a victim. It wasn't, he wasn't a part of the fight, but he had this boxing gym and that was a community for these young men.
The Importance of Role Models and Community Support
Emma Waddington: In Brixton his mother went on to continue [00:39:00] this boxing gym, but I think those are, that's, what's missing is where young men can come together and get accepted and have opportunities to share and feel a part of something.
And where they can have the opportunity to talk about themselves. And I think that's part of it has been lost, but part of it's never been there. It's just the way. We find ourselves, I think, I haven't got data on this, but we find ourselves in a situation where young men feel so disenfranchised because there's more competition you know there's young women who are working really hard and getting degrees and Not getting into violence and getting ahead and I think that's, that makes it much harder than young men 50 years ago where women were mostly at home.
There's much more than expectation on men today than I think that was 50 years ago in terms of behavior [00:40:00] academics and it's hard.
Nike Oruh: It is hard.
Recognizing and Addressing Societal Challenges
Nike Oruh: I think one of the things I've taken from today is almost, It's about recognizing the challenge, because sometimes we don't even want to say that it's challenging or that's difficult. It's recognizing it first. And this is like a call to action. It's a call to action. When you observe and you are aware of an issue, you say, I see it.
What can we do? Support, what can we do to resolve? Cause it's not an unsolvable problem. I don't subscribe to it's hopeless. I actually believe.
Empowering Individuals and Collective Action
Nike Oruh: There are a lot of good men out there. There's a lot of good women out there, you know, and it's about working together in the communities, societies, families and collectively addressing it, I don't think there's one simple answer, which is, again, we often look for, I just want a quick fix.
If we do this, will this happen? There's many, we talked about this, Chris, about the concept of like the flower, you know, in person centered counseling, you know, you need [00:41:00] the soil, you need the water, you need the sunlight for the plant to flourish and grow, you know, and for young men and for young women, we need those various components of purpose, family, health, nutrition, all these different things to help a person become their whole self, you know.
Emma Waddington: Yeah, and like you so wisely said, you know it's easy like it was for me before I had boys to think it was somebody else's problem.
Nike Oruh: Othering.
Emma Waddington: It really is all of our problem. If we want to a healthy society, we need to look after everybody in our communities.
Nike Oruh: Definitely. I mean, I do a lot of race and equality work and there's a there's lots of talk around intersectionality. It's a Kimberley Crenshaw. And she, when she talks about inequality, she says when you see it as a them problem or other problem. That's the problem
That is the problem [00:42:00] when it doesn't sort of relate to me, it's like it's over there, right?
That's the problem because we're all connected. You know, we'll all have somebody who is intrinsically linked. We will have a brother, a friend, a sister, a mother, a cousin who that relates to. You know, and only when we see that, then we go, Oh, actually, that makes a little bit more sense. Or you have a child, you suddenly go, ah, right.
Or you work in an environment where you see that struggle, you see, you know, you're going to a community where somebody can't get a job. They're not heard. Then you say, I'd be angry too. You know if I felt like I, I'm not seeing, I'm not heard, you know? And there's another gentleman called Ibram X.
Kendi. And when he talks about racism, he talks about like it being rained on. So like, but not knowing you're wet. we're getting all these messages and I suppose young men as well are getting these messages and not realizing that I'm wet with all this information, this misinformation.
Yeah. [00:43:00] Actually, and we've got an opportunity to go, hang on a minute. Do you know, like you're soaking with this, these lies, this misinformation, this mess about how you need to be. And actually we can change that. You know you can be your full self without going down that avenue or behaving that way or treating somebody else and other like that.
Emma Waddington: Absolutely.
Chris McCurry: yeah, it could be a coworker, it could be a one of your students. It could be anybody in your life who's struggling. Where you can have, you know, you can take those deep breaths yourself, because very often we get activated when somebody else is struggling, and we want to push it away, but to be able to be open to that experience and present to that person.
Is uh, you know, transformative, maybe not in a huge way and not right away, but, you know, incrementally if we can create that holding environment for [00:44:00] the people around us and give them the tools to be able to struggle well, I've just, that's my favorite definition of resilience is struggling well.
Nike Oruh: I like
Chris McCurry: Yeah.
Nike Oruh: I like that struggle as well. Yeah. And it's necessary as well. That's the thing that they're not in isolation. I was speaking to a guy, he's a PT and he's in terms of bodybuilding and stuff. And he was sort of talking about how you know, you have to continue to lift heavier weights.
To get stronger, you know, you have to have to embrace the struggled. We all want to get there, but no one wants to travel. Right.
The Journey of Personal Growth and Resilience
Nike Oruh: So it's we have to, you have to go through, and we said earlier, the initiation, you know, if you look at mythology, right, you go through the fire before the liquid gold, you know, it's kind of like those are the, it's written in scriptures and mythology that, but we've kind of lost it to some [00:45:00] degree of.
We just end up there, but actually the process of, you know, empowering somebody's in person center counseling, the actualizing tendency. So if you can empower that, then they can be become who they need to be. Not who I think they should be, who they need to be for themselves.
Emma Waddington: . We need to empower people more and we need more role models. I've been doing these series of talks on what about our boys. And one of the questions that a lot of people ask me is where do I find better role models for my boys? You know, who could they listen to? Who could they look up to?
So if you have any ideas, that'd be great. Cause. Because the people that, you know, are being listened to are probably not the ones we want them to listen to, those are the ones that make, you know, a lot of noise. Yeah. Yeah, and you're not going to get lots
Nike Oruh: one of the interesting things about that is. Even what we define as a [00:46:00] role model,
Emma Waddington: these gestures,
Nike Oruh: a lot of what we define as what we're looking up to, the framework or the system is flawed in itself. So we kind of look at success as achieving in other cultures. It's like you're wise when you get old, you're not for him to decide.
So sometimes it's almost like if we
Chris McCurry: still waiting.
Nike Oruh: You know, you know, sometimes we have to even look at is the system itself, something that we need to be looking at who do we put on a pedestal? Who do we say is worthy? And as much as we might say, we don't, you say that. And then you go, well, but look, I can see over there.
They're the person who's popular though. You say, it doesn't matter to look like that or to have that, but that's not what I'm seeing. So. There's a lot of fundamental work to be done in terms of changing that narrative. Changing how we, cause we, I think we forget the power that we have as a collective, you know, it kind of feels like, Oh, I can't change anything, you know? [00:47:00]
And so empower that empower in the sense of you matter and you do have a voice is where I believe a lot of that. So it doesn't necessarily have to be. You know, somebody out there, it could be, you know, your, in fact, for me, certainly my role models are my sister, you know, my, my mom or a teacher who encouraged you, you know, it doesn't necessarily have to be anything.
Granger, you know and sometimes when I think about when I thought about that, it's often the people who listened to you. Who believed in you, those are the people we need to exalt more and say, actually, that's such a valuable thing that, you know, you can be met and seen and encouraged, you know,
Chris McCurry: Each of us has the potential to be that person for somebody.
Nike Oruh: That's right. And we never know when we are, it can be on that day when [00:48:00] somebody just smiles and it's like, I'm seen. You know, or they listen, or, you know, you go in the shop and someone lets you in, or you're in a rush, and it's like, man, I may I needed that today, you know, in the therapeutic space, we're privileged to see that a lot, you know, we get to see people that, or parts of people that perhaps are not shown to the majority of the world,
Emma Waddington: It could be small and perhaps unnoticed and something that people reflect on years later. That doesn't take the power away. You're right.
Nike Oruh: It's not always a high five moment, is it?
Emma Waddington: No, it isn't. And sometimes this can be a painful moment,
Something that's really hard. And in hindsight, it was just important.
Nike Oruh: and necessary and essential is part of the struggle, the beautiful struggle. In fact, that actually part of becoming it's going to be like that wave. It's filled with the valley and the [00:49:00] hilltop, you know, and sometimes we're just talking about all, you know, Hilltop is like, Oh, as you said, Chris, how do you manage when you're in a valley?
What have you got the tools, you know, to navigate that, to, to manage that. Cause that's part of existing and living, you know,
Emma Waddington: Yeah, it's so true. So true. Chris has asked us to think about wrapping up and I did
my
Nike Oruh: Chris.
Chris McCurry: That's all right. It's good.
Emma Waddington: of a habit of mine to ask another question when Chris says wrapping up, I'm trying not to be too rule governed here, but Oh, good. Oh, good. It's been a great conversation.
Chris McCurry: it has, and I know it's very late for Emma.
Nike Oruh: Indeed.
Emma Waddington: it's, I'm having such a fun time. I've forgotten about the time. You've given me so much to think about. Thank you.
Chris McCurry: Yeah, and I think we can all go forward and try to be that affirming validating [00:50:00] open person to the other people in our lives, even the, you know, the stranger on the bus or our own children or whomever it may be just be open to the possibilities that we could be somebody's hero for just a brief moment in a meaningful way.
Nike Oruh: Thank you so much for I really do believe that, you know, young men and anybody can find that purpose. It's not, an external imposed identity, you know, it's like our own authenticity and that's always evolving as well.
We're evolving beings, you know, and these sort of conversations give me hope that it's not a foregone conclusion, you know,
Chris McCurry: All right. Thank you, Nike. And there are any resources that, that you have that you think might be of interest to our listeners, you can get those to us and we'll put them in the show notes.
Nike Oruh: I will do. I will do.
Emma Waddington: Oh, yeah.
Chris McCurry: All right. Well, thank you so much.
Thanks so much for tuning into the life's dirty little secrets podcast. [00:51:00] If you have any feedback for us or secrets for future episodes, you can email us at life's dirty little secrets podcast at gmail. com. Be sure to follow us on Instagram at life's dirty little secrets or on Facebook at life's dirty little secrets podcast.
We invite you to follow rate and review us on wherever you listen to this podcast. It is the best way to get our podcast out in front of new listeners. We'll be back. See you then.