Secret #33: Parents Matter - But Do We Make a Difference with Dr. Emily Edlynn
In this episode of 'Life's Dirty Little Secrets,' hosts Chris McCurry and Emma Waddington talk with Dr. Emily Edlynn, a clinical psychologist specializing in children and families.
They explore the question of whether parents truly make a significant difference in their children's lives. The conversation delves into parenting pressures, the influence of genetics versus parental involvement, and the impact of different parenting styles. Emily shares insights from her new book on autonomy-supportive parenting, offering practical advice on managing parental anxiety and fostering healthy development in children.
The episode highlights the importance of maintaining a balanced perspective on the real influence of parenting and encourages listeners to focus on building nurturing relationships with their children.
Highlights:
The impact of intensive parenting
The influence of genetics vs. parenting
Parental responsibility and anxiety
The evolution of the parent-child relationship
TIMESTAMPS
[01:54] The Impact of Parenting
[08:27] Genetics vs. Parenting
[11:38] Parental Responsibility and Anxiety
[22:28] Pseudoscience and Parenting
[29:01] Parental Expectations and Child Development
[30:31] The Importance of Parent-Child Relationship
[32:20] Technology and Modern Parenting Challenges
[34:44] Pressure in Youth Sports
[35:52] Dealing with Children's Disappointment
[40:27] Parental Influence and Letting Go
[44:52] Balancing Guidance and Freedom
About Dr. Emily Edlynn:
Check our Dr. Edlynn’s website
Follow @DrEmilyEdlynn on Instagram:
Emily Edlynn is a licensed clinical psychologist specializing in pediatric health psychology who works in private practice with children, teens, and adults. She has a BA in English from Smith College, a PhD in clinical psychology from Loyola University Chicago, and completed postgraduate training at Stanford and Children’s Hospital Orange County. Emily spent almost ten years working in children’s hospitals before pivoting to private practice, which allowed her to start a writing career. Emily has written her blog, The Art and Science of Mom, since 2017 and a parenting advice column for Parents.com since 2019. Emily’s writing has also appeared in the Washington Post, Scary Mommy, Good Housekeeping, Motherly, and more. She recently joined the Psychologists Off the Clock podcast as a co-host and is the author of a new book, Autonomy-Supportive Parenting: Reduce Parental Burnout and Raise Competent Confident Children. Emily lives with her husband, three children, and two rescue dogs in Oak Park, IL where she can see Chicago’s skyline from her attic window.
Follow us on Facebook @lifesdirtylittlesecretspodcast and on Instagram @lifesdirtylittlesecrets
Reach out and let us know you are listening and what you would like to hear on the show - email:lifesdirtylittlesecretspodcast@gmail.com
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Secret #33: Parents Matter - But Do We Make a Difference with Dr. Emily Edlynn - Life''s Dirty Little Secrets
[00:00:00]
Introduction and Guest Introduction
Emma Waddington: Today we have the fabulous Emily Edlin, who's come back to talk to us today. And Emily, as you know, is a clinical psychologist specializing in children and families, and is passionate about translating parenting research for the [00:01:00] rest of us.
And she's also the fabulous co host of psychologist off the clock, which is one of my favorite podcasts. And she's written a wonderful book, autonomy, supportive parenting, reduce parental burnout and raise competent, confident children.
Emily Edlin's New Book
Emma Waddington: And just recently has published a new book, like, When did it get published?
Emily Edlynn: I just got my copy and it's not out until August. So this is hot off the presses.
Emma Waddington: That is fantastic. In your field, a journal to explore your emotion. And it looks really, useful. Actually, we were just saying how it looks useful to adults, to be honest. It's so it's the idea that the journal that children or adolescents will use to learn about their feeling
Emily Edlynn: it's written for eight to 12 and it is really kind of a tutorial on the science of emotions.
Like, why we have all the different emotions we have, even ones that are hard to feel. And so each chapter is a different emotion. And then [00:02:00] within those chapters are activities to both understand the emotion and. Practice healthy coping. Oh,
Emma Waddington: that's, that sounds really helpful. In
Emily Edlynn: fact, it was really fun.
Emma Waddington: Yeah.
Yes, really. I'll try and get hold of a copy. They usually come a bit later to Singapore, but yes. Congratulations. That's amazing. Thank
Emily Edlynn: you. Thank you.
Emma Waddington: Really?
Emily Edlynn: for,
the repeat invite. I feel
Emma Waddington: so, I know. Yes, it's so fun.
The Impact of Parenting
Emma Waddington: So today we have a particularly interesting topic close to everybody's heart in
Life's Dirty Little Secrets - Emily Edlynn: so
Emma Waddington: the topic is parents matter, but do they make a difference?
That's a bit controversial, I would say, but a really important topic to be discussing, to think about what is the real impact that parents can have in our children's development and our children's lives. So yeah, perhaps we can kick off with why this is an important conversation. Why do you think we should be having this conversation?
I don't know.
Emily Edlynn: Well, from [00:03:00] my standpoint, where I talk and write a lot about the risks and downsides of intensive parenting, which has become the really dominant parenting style of being heavily involved in every aspect of our children's lives, I think bringing up this question again and again Is a positive in the sense of getting some perspective on how much does all that involvement really change a child's trajectory and how much is it actually making a difference because it's, it takes a ton of energy And attention and again, I see a lot of the downsides, including parents kind of losing their core sense of self and identity because they're doing so much parenting and they're so, I call it hyper parenting.
So I think it's a good question to really look at what do we know from the science
Life's Dirty Little Secrets - Emily Edlynn: and
Emily Edlynn: how [00:04:00] can we examine the influence of parents on child development?
Emma Waddington: Absolutely.
Emily Edlynn: And,
Emma Waddington: Yes, and hopefully have some answers so that we can regulate our parenting behaviors a little bit, because I do think you know, there's been, I don't know how many books, last time I looked, written on parenting, in the last couple of decades, to be honest, there's been a real shift, perhaps in response to the parenting in the 60s that has moved us into this very intensive and very intentional world of parenting.
So yes, I'm really glad we are thinking about this and seeing what really is worth. We just had a conversation with, Diana Hill, who used to be on psychology about the clock about why effort.
and it feels really important to be thinking about, you know, what really is going to make a difference when it comes to our parenting [00:05:00] efforts and where is our energy well spent. So, yeah, let's have, let's start having this conversation.
Do you want to kick us off, Emily, just thinking about, so what do we know about the internet?
The impact of parenting on outcomes. That is a really big question.
Emily Edlynn: And I would say this isn't, you know, I'm an academic by training, so I'm always really aware of what I don't know, right? I mean, I'm so high integrity around what I'm representing. So I'll say that, you know, in my current work, I'm very much in the parenting universe of parent writing and parent guidance.
But I'm not in the right now, I'm not like reading all the journal articles at this point, that was
Life's Dirty Little Secrets - Emily Edlynn: good
Emily Edlynn: enough in grad school, but I think, you know, there's, there has been this back and forth, even between scientists around. How much do parents matter? And I [00:06:00] have seen the headlines in media, popular media.
That's so click worthy of parents don't matter. You know, I think that gets everyone's attention and despite the back and forth and this huge debate as usual, I think the answer likely falls in the middle. I mean, these are both extreme sides. Parents don't matter, or they are the. Are the primary influence, and it depends, it's going to depend on a lot of factors.
And of course I wrote a book, I think what gets confusing as a psychologist too, is when you're reading all this, all these articles over decades about child outcomes, I wrote a whole book after reading dozens of articles about how parenting strategies specifically affect child outcomes. It's really hard to say parenting doesn't matter.
It's a hard reconciling to make between and how [00:07:00] to all, how's all these are all these studies showing that kind of parenting then leads to these outcomes. So, I think that's, where I get stuck. I'm curious where you fall on that.
Chris McCurry: I think it's an overly simplest questions. I mean, it's kind of like when people ask the question, does psychotherapy work?
It's like, well, What kind of psychotherapy delivered by whom, to whom, under what circumstances, and I know you've, Emily, talked about, you know, the cultural differences, you know, in Japan, you know, lots of co sleeping. You know, the whole question of authoritative versus authoritarian parenting that's been going on for years and years, you know, that depends on, you know, your socioeconomic status and your, you know, your cultural history.
So I think when we try to reduce these things to simplest questions,[00:08:00]
Life's Dirty Little Secrets - Emily Edlynn: it
Chris McCurry: it does generate more heat than life.
Emma Waddington: It is really I, was. Sort of when we were thinking about this topic, I think it might be worth thinking about the sort of two camps and why we've had this debate more recently in response to What is the real impact of parenting?
And of course it is I agree. It can be over simplistic, but it's also worth thinking a little bit about What we know are individual differences and what we know are You Influenced by it's obviously the nurture nature argument to make things look really simple and it's much more complicated, but what is, yeah what, is the genetic piece?
What can we not influence through parenting? So what do we know? None of us are researchers let's just put that out there. And I don't know the research very deeply at all. But I am [00:09:00] curious. .
Genetics vs. Parenting
Emma Waddington: So one of the debates, obviously side of the debates is that really it's genetics that drives outcomes more than parenting.
and it's, quite a strong argument, you know, genetics does account for probably 50, if not more 70%.
Life's Dirty Little Secrets - Emily Edlynn: percent
Emma Waddington: You know, how we do in life, how successful we are at school, our behavioral, some of our mental health, issues. And so, you know, can parents really influence those parts of us? well, I mean,
Chris McCurry: a couple of things, measures of self control, you know, going back to.
the marshmallow study measures of self control are twice as predictive of academic success than our acute scores.
Life's Dirty Little Secrets - Emily Edlynn: And
Chris McCurry: so, whatever parents or the environment at large can do to help. Children develop self control skills are obviously going to affect academic success. The thing that I just would just throw out here is the whole idea of epigenetics, which I really, [00:10:00] you know, can't say I understand, but we're beginning to understand that the environment can affect gene expression.
So you could have all kinds of genes for this or that. And the environment, including the parental part of that, will turn on or turn off some of those genes, and you get the final common pathway, you know, whatever that might be. So, again, you know, to say, is it genes or is it, you know, the environment, that's, blended in ways that we didn't appreciate even, like, ten years ago.
Emily Edlynn: You know, another finding I ran across that was really interesting to me was this idea that children act like their parents when they're home with their parents, but then outside in the community and in their non home environments, they are behaving in different ways. And that was one of the arguments that what we're seeing in terms of.
Like [00:11:00] parents seeing their children as similar to them is kind of an artifact of, or a bias of, well, they're behaving more like you around you. And I hadn't really thought of it that way, but it's kind of interesting because that brings in again, the impact of a child's
Life's Dirty Little Secrets - Emily Edlynn: other
Emily Edlynn: environments besides the home and family and how they're, being shaped by.
Their school environment, their community environment, their peer environment.
Chris McCurry: Well, along those lines, I mean, children tend to be better behaved outside the home than in the home and how children behave outside the home is more predictive of their future than how they behave in the home, which is comforting news.
That I've often conveyed to parents, you know, probably in large part, because kids are more regressed around their parents and are less likely to act in mature ways or try things out that they wouldn't dare try out, [00:12:00] you know their teacher or their friends, parents in terms of trying to get their needs met.
these things are complicated.
Emma Waddington: I guess it gets me thinking. So, you know, as.
Parental Responsibility and Anxiety
Emma Waddington: We only think about this when we become parents until we're parents, we don't really care too much about the influence parents can have on children, but It feels like a huge responsibility to become a parent
Life's Dirty Little Secrets - Emily Edlynn: and
Emma Waddington: that we carry this tremendous weight on how our kids will turn out.
Like if our kids are rude, we feel responsible. If our kids don't do well in school, we feel responsible. If our kids aren't potty trained by 18 months, we feel responsible. You know it's, all on us. So at least recently. It feels like it's all on us. I can't say that previous generations felt that
Life's Dirty Little Secrets - Emily Edlynn: sense of
Emma Waddington: responsibility and you can see the kind of evolution of the literature that has moved us to that, to this place we are in today, I [00:13:00] think, where parenting feels heavy and, anxiety provoking and stressful.
Emily Edlynn: It's a lot of pressure. I think it's a high. Pressure culture right now around parenting.
Emma Waddington: Yeah, because I mean, not just because we're worried about the safety of our children, a lot of that, but it's because we think we can have such make such a difference.
Life's Dirty Little Secrets - Emily Edlynn: And
Emma Waddington: so thinking about how much the different choices that we make as parents can actually influence our kids, I think hopefully can help relieve some of that pressure.
that's my hope out of our conversation today. Like we're going to sort out all these anxious parents out there.
Chris McCurry: It's,
the anxious parents who are listening to this podcast. Sadly there are parents out there who are not anxious, who do not feel responsible [00:14:00] and hopefully they're. They're listening, but I w I would, venture to guess that our demographic is the neurotic parent.
Life's Dirty Little Secrets - Emily Edlynn: And
Emma Waddington: you have, and I
Chris McCurry: say that, you know, with all kindness and respect.
Emma Waddington: Yeah. And I think that's, you know, that's what we're probably alluding to is that, you know, parenting matters mostly when parenting is done really badly. Like when there's neglect parenting.
Emily Edlynn: Well, I'll share that my, the beginning of my career, like even before graduate school, I worked in the child protection system and I worked in home.
So I was at home based counselors. So 20 hours a week, I was sitting in family's homes who were under investigation for abuse or neglect. And I was part of the services for the family. And [00:15:00] so, you know, that was, I was really young. I was early twenties, so well before I became a parent myself, but it really gave me huge perspective on what new parents were worrying about with their kids, and I'm thinking.
You are not harming your child by taking a shower while the baby is fussing. They're fine. You know, I just had this bigger, like you aren't you're actually feeding your child when your child's hungry, you know, and there's just these, basics that absolutely have to be in place. And most parents who are listening to these podcasts and reading the parenting books are doing those things.
And aren't at risk for, child abuse or neglect.
Emma Waddington: And, you're right. The people who attend the parenting courses, the people who read the books, who do the audio books and lectures are all [00:16:00] the ones that are doing a good enough job. And are all the ones that are stressing about whether they are doing a good enough job.
Life's Dirty Little Secrets - Emily Edlynn: Yeah.
Emily Edlynn: They're the ones that do need the message.
Yeah. That we may matter less than we think we do,
Life's Dirty Little Secrets - Emily Edlynn: and
Emily Edlynn: that could help relieve the pressure
Life's Dirty Little Secrets - Emily Edlynn: Years
Chris McCurry: ago Stanley who wrote the difficult child. He came to Seattle and gave a lecture at the University of Washington. I was at children's hospital at the time and. For some reason, I got picked to introduce him, so introduced him to this.
2, 000 people in this lecture hall at the university on a rainy Tuesday night, and he got up and he said, you all are the best educated, most well informed generation of parents in human history, and you're the most neurotic.
Life's Dirty Little Secrets - Emily Edlynn: He said,
Chris McCurry: He said, relax. He said, by virtue of you all being here on a rainy Tuesday night, you know, you're good parents and you could just feel the energy in the room to [00:17:00] yeah, it's true.
I mean we just, make ourselves crazy with these, questions and am I doing it right? And there are 60, 000 parenting books out there the last time Emma, you and I like. Looked it up and they're probably quite a few more since that's only been about 18 months. And so it's, yeah, it's, I think the people who.
People who, are carrying the most probably need to relax and the people who aren't caring probably need to step it up and how do we reach those people? You know, honestly, Emily you were doing that, you know, when you were doing that early work and hopefully other people are doing that. Now, I'm sure they are, but probably not enough.
Life's Dirty Little Secrets - Emily Edlynn: Well,
Emily Edlynn: and what I learned from that work was the heavy impact of generational trauma and poverty. And it was so, it was just such a different world [00:18:00] and you're right, it's important that we figure out culturally, collectively, how to better meet the needs of, those families who have long suffered and don't have the resources, both like internally and concretely.
To raise children and healthier ways, but I think it's, again, it brings up the matter of perspective. You know, when we say when we even say,
Life's Dirty Little Secrets - Emily Edlynn: do
Emily Edlynn: we matter? Do parents matter for what? What does it mean? Like, what are we? What does it mean to raise a what kind of child? What are we even? How are we even defining that?
Emma Waddington: It's a great question. I was thinking about that before we came on, because I think, I think our expectations are not, I guess the bottom line is a happy child, a child that's living as full of life as they can with all the opportunities that [00:19:00] they want out of life. And that's, yeah, and that's a big socioeconomic piece,
And I would also
Emily Edlynn: even question what is happy.
I think it's. Yeah, you're right,
Chris McCurry: Happiness is nice, but
Emma Waddington: it is
Chris McCurry: It's fleeting.
Emma Waddington: Yeah, and I think that what we need to think about as parents is what do we really want for our children? And when we think about the impact of parenting, absolutely. What are we thinking that we're going to be able to impact?
Life's Dirty Little Secrets - Emily Edlynn: And
Emily Edlynn: I'll just share it too. I have friends and families I've worked with. Where the parents are very loving and attentive and maybe even not that neurotic, and they have children who struggle with various illnesses or disorders or, and they're not to blame. And I think that. The cultural message is that somehow, [00:20:00] if our child has those struggles, that we did something wrong.
Chris McCurry: There
Emily Edlynn: was a recent, I won't name names, but there's a recent best selling book that proposes, and it's all theory because there's no science in my mind to back, this up, that ADHD is due to child trauma or infant trauma. And I'm thinking that is just laying on unnecessary guilt. For all these parents who have children with ADHD, who are very loving, nurturing parents.
And now there's this message that somehow there was a trauma that caused the ADHD.
Emma Waddington: Heartbreaking.
Chris McCurry: Almost hot right now.
Emma Waddington: Yeah.
Chris McCurry: It's it's the answer for everything.
Emma Waddington: Trauma. I agree. And I think. Yeah
Chris McCurry: It'll pass.
Emma Waddington: It'll be something else. Hopefully it'll
Chris McCurry: be something else [00:21:00]
Emma Waddington: for
Chris McCurry: all the traumatized people that are just offended, but, you know, come on,
Emma Waddington: yeah, I think, and just thinking about what you said, Emily the, piece that, you know, there has been so much responsibility laid at the feet of parents, a lot of mothers, mostly like if we think of some of the psychoanalytic, theories, we talked about one just before we came on, which I have mentioned, because it's just too good.
That, Freud apparently said that asthma developed in children as a result of having overheard the parents having sex and the panting being as a result of the kid mimicking the sound that they heard. And that's just Obviously ridiculous statement, but, you know, there's been more harmful theories, like the refrigerator mother by Leo Kenner regarding why children develop autism or schizophrenia.
So very much at the feet [00:22:00] of mothers, mostly mothers and their behaviors. So there's been a very damaging history to, for parents really, and their responsibility for the outcomes. And like you said, with. These family, I've worked with incredible families who have had, Children that were really suffering, and suffered, of course, tremendously as a result, but it having not been their fault as such.
They didn't do anything wrong. And I think parents need to be liberated from some of this.
Life's Dirty Little Secrets - Emily Edlynn: this.
Emma Waddington: Narratives that it done, they make mistakes and mistakes, whatever they might be from not showing up at someone's football match. To, you know, forgetting the lunchbox or something as being sort of grave signs of neglect.
I think things have gotten out of hand.
Emily Edlynn: I also want to, I just [00:23:00] have this thought about the impact of pseudoscience. And how, you know, influencers have this huge platform now with social media to impart pseudoscience that's really dangerous, including we can't ignore the anti vaccine movement. And that again is a parenting choice, whether to get your child vaccinated.
And there's huge fear mongering out there about that is not based in science.
Life's Dirty Little Secrets - Emily Edlynn: science
Emily Edlynn: About the risks of vaccinating your children. So I think I just want to put that out there as part of the culture we're parenting in that we're just surrounded by these messages. It's really hard to tease apart what's true and what's not.
And it's again, putting a lot of responsibility on parents. I think it's
Emma Waddington: so interesting, isn't it? Cause I was just thinking how, you know, taking [00:24:00] responsibility off parents in terms of outcomes, you know, these radical outcomes, like children having, cause I do think, you know, we can influence our children's outcomes if, you know, we're neglectful, we're abusive, where we do a really harmful job.
Yes, of course. Or we bring up, you know, our children in incredible deprivation, not for any fault of our own, that will have an impact or, You know, we know that, the impact of
Life's Dirty Little Secrets - Emily Edlynn: postnatal
Emma Waddington: depression and whether that's a genetic piece or not. So we know that there are pieces of our behavior that will influence the outcomes, of our kids, but we just need to potentially also.
So I think it feels liberating to think that we don't have as much control over the outcomes, but I wonder if. [00:25:00] That creates anxiety too, like if we can't influence. Then what if we can't make a difference? Then what?
Emily Edlynn: Yes. And I think that's why this question keeps coming up
Life's Dirty Little Secrets - Emily Edlynn: because
Emily Edlynn: because some people like one answer and some people like another answer.
But I think I'll just throw out there, yes. Child abuse and neglect harms children there's just no question. I mean, it actually changes their brain wiring so we know it's harmful. I wonder also, however, if this anxious parenting.
Life's Dirty Little Secrets - Emily Edlynn: becomes
Emily Edlynn: harmful in the way that it interferes with a child's development.
So it's like we, we get in the way of what our children need to do their own growth and development because we're trying to protect them so much. So that's something that I sort of just see happening. And in my [00:26:00] work in autonomy, supportive parenting, that's one of the big fundamental theories is that.
If we're not getting our child more autonomy, they're not gaining mastery and their own sense of autonomy to live a healthier, happier life. So I think that's something just to think about for those neurotic, anxious parents. And I am included in that in that group. Of do we ever have to watch us, how we might get in the way.
And for example, my, my oldest, you know, I'm very school oriented, high achievement. School is very important to me, always excelled in school. And it kind of shocked me. My kids weren't wanting to do the exact same thing I did, but my oldest. Is now about to graduate eighth grade and in sixth grade, she could care less about the school and we had to sort of, you know, encourage her to at least do her work and we were, we didn't focus on [00:27:00] grades, but do your work and you just show up.
This year, she just, and not that it's about the grades, but this is what it represents. She just earned her first 4. 0 and she's incredibly proud of herself. And I watched her start to enjoy learning more, you know, like it became a more internally motivated process for her. And I shared this story recently on a podcast and I kind of made the joke that.
But I probably had nothing to do with it. And the podcast host said, yeah, you probably didn't. And I said, well, but I think I could have, if I kept up high pressure on, you need to get all A's, you're grounded if you don't get all A's. And, you know, if I would have kept up the external pressure. I don't know, she would have found that internal motivation
Life's Dirty Little Secrets - Emily Edlynn: And
Emma Waddington: I, mean, we could argue that you do have a lot to do with it genetically true,
Emily Edlynn: right?
Like maybe she's predisposed. If I just let her [00:28:00] find her way with that. Yeah, like also
Chris McCurry: focusing on the grades. By the time the grades come out, it's too late. But by focusing on showing up doing the work, The day to day processes that are involved, then the grades take care of themselves, and at a certain point, you know maybe, not, a person recognizes that, hey, this is kind of interesting, and they have the motivation to, to begin on their own.
But, yeah, I think if you had emphasized grades, it wouldn't have worked as well.
So you had that influence by choosing what you were going to emphasize.
Influence of Parenting Interventions
Emma Waddington: And I guess that sort of reminds me that we know that parenting interventions help with anxiety, you know, anxious kids. Can be really well supported by parental intervention in terms of [00:29:00] actually backing off and giving children opportunities to take risk.
And so we know we can help children when they're struggling and with ADHD and behavioral issues. We know that parenting interventions really do help. So we can have influence, but perhaps the emphasis being mostly on when kids are struggling.
Parental Expectations and Child Pressure
Emily Edlynn: You know, the question, is there a problem,
Life's Dirty Little Secrets - Emily Edlynn: Yeah.
Emily Edlynn: because what, I see parents is they're just in this like constant go, and worry worry, And I ask, but where's the problem?
Chris McCurry: Yeah, he's getting an A minus. Okay. Yeah. You know I, had a pretty high end clientele here in Seattle and I watched saddle change over the last 10 years in terms of.
Life's Dirty Little Secrets - Emily Edlynn: High tech
Chris McCurry: And, you know, a lot of people coming in and a lot more pressure on [00:30:00] kids. And, yeah the, problems that parents were bringing to me were, I mean, beyond first world problems,
Life's Dirty Little Secrets - Emily Edlynn: they
Chris McCurry: they
were like C suite issues.
And the child's like eight. yeah, what, you know, is there a problem
Emma Waddington: and maybe, that's a good question because parents. Can create a problem, but the problem might be that the kid isn't. The way the parents want them to exactly. Yeah, that isn't really a problem. With the kid, it's more a problem with the parent and their expectations.
Focusing on Parent-Child Relationship
Emily Edlynn: As I was thinking through these questions in preparation for today, one place I landed was focusing more on what kind of relationship do I want to nurture with my child, [00:31:00] rather than being so focused on, this is the kind of child I should be raising or need to raise.
And I just wonder about that, shift around, how am I relating to my child? Like, how do we feel in our connection together rather than
What,
kind of child am I going to end up raising and having that pressure? Because I think the relationship focus does allow for more of the freedom of your child to develop into who they are, Their real self is without these expectations that can be a mismatch. And I know in my work, and I know you've seen it, Chris, when there's that mismatch between parental expectations and a child's sense of identity, there's a lot of suffering for that child.
Life's Dirty Little Secrets - Emily Edlynn: Oh
Chris McCurry: Oh, yeah. And a lot of conflict. And,
Life's Dirty Little Secrets - Emily Edlynn: and
Chris McCurry: if the relationship [00:32:00] isn't good, then if the child does start to get into some trouble, you know, they don't have a home base to go back to and reconnect and maybe, you know, reset.
So for me, it's, the relationship is everything and I've counseled many parents not dying on the altar of homework or killing the relationship on the altar of homework. It's not a, it's not a sacrifice you want to be making.
Life's Dirty Little Secrets - Emily Edlynn: Or
Impact of Technology on Parenting
Emily Edlynn: these days, cell phones. I mean, media like technology is becoming
Life's Dirty Little Secrets - Emily Edlynn: the hell
Emily Edlynn: hell that the relationships are dying on from what I've seen.
Chris McCurry: Yeah. And that's, and it's tricky because you've got all kinds of stuff that's coming into the child's life through the phone or the computer that parents should be monitoring and, you know, maybe, you know, censoring. And that you're up against the child's culture and the whole tick tock thing. It's, you know, it's my wife and I often think, you know, [00:33:00] we're very grateful that we had our child when we did, cause he's 30 now and he missed out on a lot of this stuff that's 15 years, which I'm not sure I would have known how to handle very well.
Yeah. Yeah.
Emma Waddington: And so in a way, parenting shouldn't be a means to an end.
Emily Edlynn: I mean, parenting really should be a relationship, not a
Emma Waddington: verb. that's right. And I think that's when it gets hard when we're trying to change them. There was that book. Yeah. Wasn't it? The carpenter versus the gardener. And it has a lot about genetics that kind of lost me.
But, I like that idea. Yeah. That, you know, what kind of parent do we want to be? Are we going to be allowing that sort of genetic flow as the geneticists like to say, you know, allowing the child to be who they are, who they're going to be, and sort of make sure that they have the needs met to be able to, you know, become whatever the garden that [00:34:00] they will be versus the carpenter that's kind of forcing them.
Into being something that perhaps they're not going to be, or they're not meant to be or, that we can't influence. Yeah, and I guess the sort of backdrop is the sense of responsibility for their outcomes means that we are very invested in there because of what it can potentially say about us.
Which then
Emily Edlynn: adds so much pressure to the child.
Emma Waddington: Yeah, true. Oh.
Emily Edlynn: Yeah, it's just, it adds pressure to the child. Yeah.
Youth Sports and Parental Pressure
Emily Edlynn: And I, I mean, I'll just bring up youth sports as another example. There's so much pressure these days compared to even, I think 10, 15 years ago of athleticism, you know, and being a star athlete to be considered worthy and successful.
And there's a lot, I mean, I've seen young kids do these crazy, like. [00:35:00] Flying to Europe to do a training clinic, you know, at eight years old, it's really a different world too, that I think we need to really be paying attention to the pressure that it communicates to children and that we're becoming part of, even with good intentions.
Chris McCurry: Carl Jung said the greatest influence on the life of a child is the life his parent never led.
Emily Edlynn: Wow,
I've, heard that's a good one. See, you always come up with the quotes, Chris. It's
Emma Waddington: so true. It's so true.
Dealing with Children's Disappointment
Emma Waddington: I was just thinking recently that one of the hardest emotions that I struggle with. Is witnessing disappointment, my children's disappointment, like it, I really find that very hard. I find it hard to see them disappointed.
And I'm thinking about [00:36:00] why do I find it hard to see them disappointed? I can't, you know, rationally, I think disappointment is so important. But I think because I feel responsible that they're not, you know, getting whatever it is that they think. And I'm thinking of it particularly with my, I have a son who's very invested in his football and would go to a clinic in Europe
Emily Edlynn: each day.
Oh, mine would too, if he were invited. So I'm not shaming it. I'm just like, but it's out there, you know? And it creates.
Emma Waddington: Yeah, I think I find it very difficult to navigate and, I feel he gets huge disappointment if he doesn't play as well as he wanted, or he doesn't get picked for the starting lineup, or, you know, he's sick and therefore he doesn't get picked to play the majority, you know, that just that weight, it just, yeah, and as a [00:37:00] parent, I think, oh, no, I find it really hard to see him.
Disappointed. Like I should have been able to avoid it somehow. I don't know how, but somehow I should make it better. My husband's much better than me at sitting with disappointment. I find I was urged to rescue him somehow, comes out.
Navigating Parenting Challenges
Emma Waddington: So I think it is hard as parents to sit with their difficult feelings because we do take responsibility for it.
Even though. Their feelings probably, you know, have multiple reasons, sometimes nothing to do with us. Even when they tell us it's got something to do with us, it probably doesn't have anything to do with us. We're just the first person they saw whilst they were feeling angry. And then suddenly it's out.
Emily Edlynn: And we're the safest, and that's a good sign, right? That we are that safe space to let it all out when they need to let it all out. Within limits, they [00:38:00] can't just, you know,
Emma Waddington: Yeah, I resent being the safe space.
Life's Dirty Little Secrets - Emily Edlynn: sometimes
Emma Waddington: lot of work.
and there is data that shows that, you know, mothers get, The hard end of the stick, right?
And mothers, I remember, you know, when I used to do a lot more assessments, you know, mothers always rate children as worse behaved, you know, stronger tantrums and everyone's going, oh, yeah, well, that's the mother's rating. Let's look at everybody else. We know mothers and I'm thinking no, we know mothers are really feeling this.
They are. They're rating their experience because it is.
Life's Dirty Little Secrets - Emily Edlynn: Bigger experience.
Chris McCurry: They're getting
Emma Waddington: it, I know,
Life's Dirty Little Secrets - Emily Edlynn: But
Emma Waddington: I remember the feeling of, oh, it's mom rating the pre kids. Of course, we know mom's always embellish and make it all bigger. But until I became a parent and I recognized no embellishing, this is, it really is, it's hard.
Yeah. What do we do? What do [00:39:00] apparent to do
Given that our influence is probably given the people who are listening, anybody that's listening to right, right. Yeah. This
Emily Edlynn: audience, yes, this demographic, is likely over interpreting their level of influence.
Balancing Influence and Independence
Emily Edlynn: And I think it would be an interesting exercise for parents to, if something happens with their child and they feel that surge of anxiety or discomfort or needing to do something about it, to check in with, why am I feeling that impulse?
You know, we worry about our children's wellbeing, but in a way that overreaches. And so I think building the awareness, you know, I have
Life's Dirty Little Secrets - Emily Edlynn: have
Emily Edlynn: some, of my kids, I have three, so I won't name names, but have very big emotions and it's very intense. And I want to stop it [00:40:00] sometimes because it's so big and hard to manage.
And be with, but I've learned how, what gets my discomfort. Like you were talking about Emma is that I worry they're just not going to be okay. Like that is the underlying worry is what if they don't come out of this? What if they're really not going to be okay? And that gets my anxiety really ramped up.
But then even having that awareness helps me take a step back and remember and put context. This is life, has challenges, this is them learning how to respond to a challenge and I need to let them learn. And so I think it's, increasing that awareness in the moment and doing some checks throughout those uncomfortable parenting moments of why am I anxious?
Is there an actual problem? And What am I worried about? What's my fear here?
Chris McCurry: And, okay. When,
Emily Edlynn: what does that even [00:41:00] mean? Yeah.
Chris McCurry: Well I, would hate to have my life, you know, signed by my twenties.
It was not pretty, you know, I flunked out of university. I was a janitor for a while sleeping on my soon to be brother in law's couch.
You know what I mean? It was not pretty. And I'm sure I put my parents through all kinds of, You know, worries but, you know, life that got me, you know, going at a certain point. But yeah, I mean, I was not certainly not fully formed by the time I left my parents house and had lots of experiences to go before.
I became a reasonably responsible adult and, you know, thank, thankfully my wife, you know, shores, the parts of me that aren't, but yeah, I mean, when, it's, a, lifelong journey for most people and parents are only there for a certain portion of it in terms of day to day involves.
Life's Dirty Little Secrets - Emily Edlynn: I
Emily Edlynn: wonder if there are any sort of [00:42:00] mantras or affirmations that would help, right?
Like,
Life's Dirty Little Secrets - Emily Edlynn: like
Emily Edlynn: being able to say, this isn't about me. Or
Life's Dirty Little Secrets - Emily Edlynn: my,
Emily Edlynn: this is my child's path, or, you know, along those lines, you know.
Life's Dirty Little Secrets - Emily Edlynn: of,
Emily Edlynn: Of separating somehow separating from that investment that this is that I have all of this control or influence. Do you have ideas?
Chris McCurry: I'm curious. It's a merit. It's a marathon, not a sprint.
you know, I'm just 1 of. Many influences on the life of my child and it's parenting is a process of, starting to relinquish those influences and allowing other influences to stand in, whether it's, the kindergarten teacher on through their first boss at the fast food restaurant, but, you know they're, working at.
Emma Waddington: And I guess that's like, that's the scary part. Oh yeah. [00:43:00] We have to relinquish control
Chris McCurry: And,
maintain the relationship. We don't relinquish the relationship.
Emily Edlynn: Right. Yeah. And I want to, you know, I think where it can be a little fuzzy is, you know, the whole permissive parenting too, which is that approach of like very few limits.
Like there's a lot of warmth, but there's like very few limits and rules and structure and some of this. You know, if we're like, oh, well, we don't have influence, so it doesn't matter what we do. That's not quite it either, right?
Emma Waddington: We're not going to neglect, just because, you know, we know that,
If you are doing well as a family, socioeconomically,
Life's Dirty Little Secrets - Emily Edlynn: socioeconomically,
Emma Waddington: academically, then your kid is going to be okay.
But that doesn't mean we stop sending them to school. Exactly. Right. Right.
Chris McCurry: And it's going to depend. It's, you know, you each have three [00:44:00] children, you know, they're probably all quite different. I know, you know, I've heard Emma talk about, you know, different her children are so it kind of depends. What does this child need?
You know, as opposed to this child And then they like change on you, you know, they go from being a toddler to, you know, school aged kid to an adolescent to a young adult, and you have to adjust accordingly.
Life's Dirty Little Secrets - Emily Edlynn: Yeah,
The Evolution of Parenting Relationships
Emily Edlynn: And as we're talking about the relationship, goes through changes as well. And I think we need to normalize that.
And I happen to have my 12 year old as my middle child. And so I've done this once with her older sister, and I'm realizing for these two, this 11 to 13 age is a huge transformation of how they're connecting with me or, not, you know, where they need differentiate from me a lot. So there's a lot more pushing me away, but that doesn't happen.
So I think the relationship is going to change too. And [00:45:00] we need to. Be open to that and understanding and kind of go with the flow of that as the best we can.
Emma Waddington: Yeah. Cause I guess when I'm thinking about relationship, we can get a bit confused as parents. What does a parenting relationship look like?
And it's not about being our kid's friend and it's not about them always being happy. It's actually having a relationship where you set boundaries, you say, no, You say, I didn't like this,
Life's Dirty Little Secrets - Emily Edlynn: you
Emma Waddington: say, I did like this. And I think you're fabulous. It's the whole of it. And that being a really important piece to their development, I think, maybe not in terms of, yeah, I think in terms of outcomes, because, you know, they learn about relationships with us.
Life's Dirty Little Secrets - Emily Edlynn: I
Chris McCurry: I think it's, establishing guardrails where you're, it's guidance as opposed to, you know, micromanaging.
Emily Edlynn: Yeah. We're not the cruise director.
Chris McCurry: Right. You know it's, [00:46:00] providing feedback. I used to tell my son, I am representing society at this moment. It's if what you're doing is annoying me, it's probably going to annoy other people.
And, you know, he'd roll his eyes. I'm just like, Oh, God, parents for psychologists. I'm doomed, you know, but but it's true. You know, like I'm, representing society here and I don't think I'm unusual and how I'm responding to your behavior at the moment.
Emily Edlynn: Yeah. And I've had the whole, my body, my choice for everything.
My, my life, my choice, you know, there's that. And I've say, Well, I have the fully developed adult brain, so, and I am in your role as parent. So yeah, I need to have, find some limits here to your life, your choice. It's not all your choice for your own well being,
Emma Waddington: right? Add your own goods. It's.
Final Thoughts on Parenting
Emma Waddington: Yes, it's really wonderful to be talking about [00:47:00] parenting in this way.
I found the conversation really quite liberating and I felt quite validated because I can trip over myself as a parent and start worrying if I forgot to pick up my child, they will then have to bring it up to me. And therapy in 20 years time, or maybe we have to
Emily Edlynn: have something to bring up.
Emma Waddington: Maybe it's something else you didn't know had happened, which is more likely.
And accept that, you know, things are influencing my kids that are beyond my control. they will develop into their little, not so little beings. And I will, Do the best I can to have a relationship where I can love them for who they are. Even when I don't like them, cause there are times when we don't and they don't like us, but that's okay.
That's okay. It's part of growing up really is. So thank you. [00:48:00] Any final, anything else?
Emily Edlynn: I think our, final answer to this question is, it depends. Oh, no. But yeah.
Life's Dirty Little Secrets - Emily Edlynn: is
Emily Edlynn: not the best selling answer, unfortunately, because it does not provide certainty, but I'm hopeful that listening, people listening to this can come away with perspective and more context and kind of let themselves off the hook for, you know,
Life's Dirty Little Secrets - Emily Edlynn: not
Emily Edlynn: just don't sweat the small stuff is kind of my take home to don't sweat the small stuff and just focus on the mirror picture.
Emma Waddington: Yes. And I think. Also all these different models of parenting, like, attachment, parenting, detachment, parenting, reattachment, I dunno, all of these different models that there are so many and they're so short lived because the reality is that they probably don't make that big a difference.
That's [00:49:00] why we seem to come up with more. And, You know, I would like to sort of liberate parents into, you know, trying to enjoy the ride a bit more and not get so entangled with their worries about outcomes and are they doing a good enough job? And I think I wouldn't want to say it, but I think by definition, if they're worrying about it, they're probably doing a good enough job,
Chris McCurry: right?
And the emphasis is on good enough.
Emma Waddington: Which includes our kids not liking us and our kids getting angry with us and our kids telling us we're not doing a good enough job. All of that still makes it a good enough job,
as hard as it is. Wonderful. Well, thank you, Emily. This was a delight.
Life's Dirty Little Secrets - Emily Edlynn: Thank
Chris McCurry: you so much.
Emily Edlynn: Thanks for making this happen. I appreciate you
Chris McCurry: very much. Congratulations on the new book.
Emily Edlynn: I think, I know I'm sitting here thinking and I wrote a parenting book too. [00:50:00]
Chris McCurry: Yeah,
Emily Edlynn: I'm a part of the problem.
Life's Dirty Little Secrets - Emily Edlynn: Yes,
Chris McCurry: we are. But I will say, Yeah
Emily Edlynn: This, conversation will help everyone.
But really though, in my book, I am, I make an effort to have it be very flexible, more of an approach and mindset than an actual do this, don't do that. So I'm hoping I'm straddling the line a little bit where if there's more of an expansiveness to it than a prescription,
Emma Waddington: wonderful. Thank you.
Chris McCurry: Thank you, Emily.
Emma Waddington: Thank you.
[00:51:00]
